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Profil von miasma miasma
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 14:14:06nach oben

14 Posts: Paulo


Ich habe einen wirklich extrem gelungenen Post auf DarkUFO gefunden.
Diese "Mirror-Mirror On The Wall" hat anscheinend wirklich Hand und Fuß ...
Ich tagge es mal als Spoiler ... obwohl es keiner ist, sondern einfach nur ein paar Gedanken
von einem Hardcore-Fan. Es klingt alles so plausibel auf einmal


Zitat:

I can't help but think that the vast majority of viewers (including here) are missing an amazing aspect of how the story of Lost is told. I see a lot of people complaining about how Ilana died, this week. In and of itself, Ilana's death was contrived and lame.

But her death was not a stand-alone thing. It is part of a huge story that has been carefully crafted and woven together since Season 1. They say history repeats itself, but on this island, this is true to the Nth degree. We are seeing the same situations and scenarios play out, over and over again. It mostly follows a patter of Season 6 mirroring Season 1..... and 5 mirroring 2 .... and 4 mirroring 3. So it is kind of like an A-B-C-C-B-A pattern. Mirror image. (Hence the mirror references in the final season, to draw attention to the idea of mirror-imaging.) The show has always been about duality -- black & white, free will & destiny, the Losties and vs Others, Locke vs Ben, the beach vs the jungle/cave, Jacob vs the MIB, and on and on and on. Even that stupid novel manuscript "bad twin." What a goofy form of foreshadowing that was... from Season 1 to Season 6, that is! Duality is at the heart of the design of the whole show, and the mirror-image structure of th! e storytelling is a major tool to demonstrate this in both obvious and subtle ways.

I could go on for pages and pages of examples of this phenomenon, and this is actually my single favorite aspect of the storytelling on the show! And Ilana's death is YET another example of this pattern. Her death replicates the death of Arzt in Season 1, and this is intentional, part of an intentional, grander and more intricate pattern. Here are a few other, quick examples:

Remember how Sayid was tied down on a table, electrical wires attached to him to shock him, in order to aquire information about him, in a dwelling place that is hidden within the jungle. This was carried out by someone who lost their child and doesn't know if they'll ever see their child again. This happened in Season 1 . . . and Season 6!

-------------------
SEASON 1 - While searching for answers to the island's mysteries, Jack is led by a mysterious man to find a cave, next to water. Inside is a black stone and a white stone, and various personal belongings, including a baseball bat. Alongside the cave is Charlie's guitar. Christian's body appears to have been removed. Jack almost fell off a cliff while searching for his father, and this led him to the cave. But, Locke reached out and took his hand and saved him.

SEASON 6 - While searching for answers to the island's mysteries, Sawyer is led by a mysterious man (FLocke) to a cave next to water. Inside is a black stone and a white stone, and various personal belongings, including a baseball glove. Just inside the cave is a lute (an ancient guitar). The name of Locke (who took Christian's place on Ajira 816) is removed, crossed out. Sawyer almost falls of a cliff while being taken to this cave, but FLocke reaches out and takes his hand and saves him.
------------------------

SEASON 1 - Sun, an Asian character who hides many secrets, shows her skill at healing with herbal remedies.

SEASON 6 - Dogen, an Asian character who hides many secrets, shows his skill in the use of herbal medicines.
------------------------

SEASON 1 - Sun can speak English, while Jin can't.

SEASON 6 - Jin can speak English, while Sun can't.
------------------------

SEASON 1 - Sayid is a man who is ashamed of his violent past, and of how certain authority figures pressed him into service to them, to hurt innocent people for his boss's gain. Sayid's leg is injured in the process of being caught in a trap. He is caught by the person who set the trap, Rousseau. He passes out, and she takes him to her hidden home, where she interrogates him about her child, which she says was kidnapped by the Others.

SEASON 6 - Jin is a man who is ashamed of his violent past, and of how certain authority figures pressed him into service to them, to hurt innocent people for his boss's gain. Jin's leg is injured when he is caught in a trap. He is caught by the person who set the trap, Claire. He passes out, and she takes him to her hidden home, where she interrogates someone else she captured along with Jin, asking him about her child, which she says was kidnapped by the Others.
----------------------

SEASON 1 - Hurley decides that everyone needs to know who each other is, so he starts a census, which leads him to getting the ship manifest with the list of all the survivors on it. Many of the names are crossed off, having been "eliminated" (by death) in the crash or immediately afterward. By going over the list, Hurley figures out that one of the survivors is not a survivor, but is really an outsider pretending to be one of them... someone who had already been on the island for a long time!

SEASON 6 - Hurley is used by Jacob to take Jack to the Lighthouse, where they find the mirrors and the giant dial with the names of all of the candidates written on it. Many of the names are crossed out, having been eliminated. Meanwhile, FLocke takes Sawyer (who in Season 1 had the manifest) to the cave by the sea, and also shows him the names of candidates. Many are crossed off. It is around this time that Sawyer also learns that Locke is not really Locke, at all. He is an outsider pretending to be a survivor... but is really someone who had already been on the island for a long time!
-----------------------

SEASON 2 - Desmond is waiting for his replacement, and uses a riddle as a password to determine whether a person is there to help with his mission. (What did one snowman say to the other snowman? "Smells like carrots." ) Note: this riddle also appeared in Season 1, briefly, before Desmond ever appeared.

SEASON 5 - Ilana is searching for Jacob's replacement, and uses a riddle as a password to determine whether someone is involved in her mission. (What lies in the shadow of the statue? "He who will save us all." ) Note: this riddle also appears in Season 6, thus mirroring Season 1, while 2 mirrors 5.
-----------------------

SEASON 2 - Jin appears to have been completely lost at sea, possibly dead, after the raft he's on is destroyed by an explosive. There is no sign of him. However, later, he is found on the island, having washed ashore there.

SEASON 5 - Jin appears to have been completely lost at sea, possibly dead, after the ship he's on is destroyed by an explosive. There is no sign of him. However, later, he is found on the island, having washed ashore there.
------------------

SEASON 2 - Sawyer tells Jin his arm is going to fall off.

SEASON 5 - Jin sees the French science team member's arm ripped off.
----------------

SEASON 2: The survivors explored a lot of the various hatches and locations of Dharma. Several of the survivors are taken prisoner by the Others and stay with them for a while in one of the Dharma locations. They are gone from the survivors camp for nearly 3 weeks.

SEASON 5: Some of the survivors went to the Dharma village, where they lived for 3 years among the Dharma people, going around to a lot of the Dharma hatches and locations.
----------------

SEASON 2: Sawyer gets possession of all of the guns and declares himself "sheriff"

SEASON 5: Sawyer is put in charge of the guns as he becomes the Dharma sheriff
--------------------

SEASON 2: Ben (aka Henry Gale) is tortured by Sayid and held captive by Jack and other survivors, but one of the survivors betrays the rest by risking everything to rescue Ben, even though he knows Ben is the leader of the Others and is responsible for many terrible things.

SEASON 5: A young Ben is shot by Sayid. Jack and others stand by and refuse to help Ben, but another survivor takes it upon herself to risk everything to rescue young Ben, even knowing he will be the leader of the Others and will be responsible for many terrible things.
------------------

SEASON 2: They found their way to the hatch. They argued over whether to do something (push the button) in the hatch. The season ended with a lot of arguing over whether to push the button, and finally they don't push the button, and BOOM!

SEASON 5: They found their way to (what would be) the hatch, where they argued over whether to use some modern technology (bomb) to counteract the island's dangerous "energy." And then "pushed the button" and blew it up (or more accurately, it imploded, just like the hatch did in Season 2).

(Note: "Pushing the button" is an old euphemism from the Cold War days that referred to dropping a nuclear weapon.)
-------------------------

SEASON 3 - Introduces mystery of the people from the Kahana

SEASON 4 - Reveals the truth about the people from the Kahana
-------------------

SEASON 3 - Juliet tries to conspire to kill Ben when he is helpless, but Jack refuses and saves him. Ben lives.

SEASON 4 - Sayid conspires to kill Ben when he is helpless (a child), Jack refuses to save him. Ben lives.
----------------

SEASON 3 - Ben shoots Locke and leaves him for dead in the mass grave. Locke tries to commit suicide, but fails.

SEASON 4 - Locke tries to commit suicide, but fails. Then, Ben kills Locke. (Reverse order from what happened in Season 3)
------------------

SEASON 3 - Hatch catastrophically implodes, causing Desmond to bounce around in time

SEASON 4 - Donkey Wheel breaks, catastrophically effecting the island and causing survivors to bounce around in time
. . . . . [note: in Season 2, Locke lowers Kate down into the hatch flume, but something interrupts it and she disappears,
and then in Season 5, Locke is lowered into the well above the Donkey Wheel, but is interrupted and he falls and disappears]
---------------

SEASON 4 - Ben turns donkey wheel, goes to outside world and recruits Sayid

SEASON 5 - Locke turns donkey wheel, goes to outside world to recruit other survivors
--------------

SEASON 4 - Desmond starts out without Penny, ends up with her

SEASON 5 - Desmond starts with Penny, ends up shot and thus taken away from her

. . .

One of my favorite (although more minor) examples is the "return" of Charlie's peanut butter, a couple episodes ago in Season 6. Remember Charlie's (imaginary) peanut butter, which he offered to Claire to try to lift her spirits in Season 1? Just recently, in the Smoking Club's camp, Sawyer came up next to Kate and offered her some "hot cocoa" to try to make her feel better. She asked where she found some hot cocoa on the island...? "I didn't," he said. "Just pretend." I had to laugh out loud at that one!

There are other examples I could cite. This is just a few, because the list is too long to post here, completely. But these show a clear and definite pattern. And Ilana's death is a part of that very intentional pattern. Yes, it's contrived... for a reason. Season 1 was giving us numerous pictures of what we would see in the final season! And Season 2 showed us many things we could expect to see in the next-to-last season, and so on! And I, for one, think it's awesome! On this island, history repeats itself... to the extreme. And no matter how much free will you try to exercise... this "curse" will catch up with you and make you a part of its mirror-image storytelling.


Was haltet ihr von der ganzen Geschichte?

Gruß

- Editiert von miasma am 23.04.2010, 14:22 -

- Editiert von mercy am 23.04.2010, 15:04 -




... Two Players - Two Sides ...
One Is Light
One Is Dark




Profil von mercy mercy
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 14:19:24nach oben
Homepage von mercyLiveJournalSkypeICQ
19339 Posts: Jacob Loves Me!
das-dass.de
Moderator


DarkUFO assoziiere ich immer gleich mit Spoiler. Ich lese das erst gar nicht.

redrabbit
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 14:28:29nach oben

Gast

Das Zitat oben kannst Du lesen, sind keine Spoiler drin. Und interessante Ansicht. Das erklärt auch, warum sich so viele Dinge wiederholen. Ganz bewusst, wie's scheint.

Profil von mercy mercy
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 14:31:40nach oben
Homepage von mercyLiveJournalSkypeICQ
19339 Posts: Jacob Loves Me!
das-dass.de
Moderator


Ja, keine Spoiler. Aber wer sagt, wieviel der Theorie auf bereits aufgeschnappte Spoiler basieren? Vor allem wenn es von Dark UFO kommt.

Profil von titus titus
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 14:40:53nach oben

1463 Posts: Scout

Jo eben der Thread ist hochgradig kontaminiert. Aber macht was ihr wollt =)


A cloned world nearly ends


Mourpheus
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 14:49:49nach oben

Gast

Vieleicht kann mal jemand aus dem Spoiler-Board die Theorie mit bekannten Spoilern abgleichen. Vorher werde ich das auch nicht lesen.

Profil von miasma miasma
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 14:52:54nach oben

14 Posts: Paulo


ihr werdet in dem post keine spoiler finden ...
es basiert alles auf fakten




... Two Players - Two Sides ...
One Is Light
One Is Dark




paranoid_android
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 14:55:34nach oben

Gast

Ich bin bekennender Spoiler-Leser (und neu hier im Forum, also Hallo erstmal!), und kann Euch versichern, dass alles, was im ersten Post steht, Szenen sind, die wir schon kennen.

Abgesehen davon hat DarkUFO zwar eine Spoiler-Section, genau wie dieses Forum auch, aber in den anderen Bereichen seiner Seite lässt auch er keine Spoiler zu. Kein Grund, paranoid zu werden, sprach paranoid_android


Patrician
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 15:00:20nach oben

Gast

Ergo werden im Finale alle sterben, weil in der ersten Folge alle den Absturz überlebt haben;-)

Profil von wasser wasser
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 15:04:02nach oben

156 Posts: Lost One

Zitat:
Original von miasma
Was haltet ihr von der ganzen Geschichte?


Gar nichts.
Das übliche Muster-suchen-und-finden.
Glaube kaum, daß das absichtlich so gebastelt wurde.


boredpanda
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 15:11:15nach oben

Gast

Sorry, kannst du das ganze Englisch mal übersetzen und zusammenfassen?

Palexx
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 15:26:28nach oben

Gast

http://translate.google.de/#

Phlox
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 15:28:26nach oben

Gast

Teilweise ist das sicher mit voller absicht der Autoren wie z.B.
Zitat:


SEASON 1 - Sayid is a man who is ashamed of his violent past, and of how certain authority figures pressed him into service to them, to hurt innocent people for his boss's gain. Sayid's leg is injured in the process of being caught in a trap. He is caught by the person who set the trap, Rousseau. He passes out, and she takes him to her hidden home, where she interrogates him about her child, which she says was kidnapped by the Others.

SEASON 6 - Jin is a man who is ashamed of his violent past, and of how certain authority figures pressed him into service to them, to hurt innocent people for his boss's gain. Jin's leg is injured when he is caught in a trap. He is caught by the person who set the trap, Claire. He passes out, and she takes him to her hidden home, where she interrogates someone else she captured along with Jin, asking him about her child, which she says was kidnapped by the Others.


Teilweise aber auch an den haaren herbeigezogen wie z.B.

Zitat:


SEASON 2 - Sawyer tells Jin his arm is going to fall off.

SEASON 5 - Jin sees the French science team member's arm ripped off.


Ich denke schon, dass diese ganze Spiegel- bzw. Wiederholung-Symbolik absolut gewollt ist. Ich glaube aber nicht, dass man das so genau aufschlüsseln kann wie "Season 5 spiegelt Season 2".
Ich glaube vielmehr, dass alles was auf der Insel passiert einem gewissen Wiederholungsmuster unterliegt.
"It always ends the same" wie MiB schon sehr richtig bemerkte. Alles wiederholt sich. "They come, corrupt and destroy".
Jacob will halt diesen Kreislauf unterbrechen. Alle Spiegel, Wiederholungen, deja-vu's etc. sind meiner Meinung nach nur Symbole für den nicht enden wollenden Kreislauf.


Esau
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 15:35:52nach oben

Gast

Fliegen dann nach dieser Theorie alle zum Schluss wieder nach gemeinsam Weg? Mich überzeugts nicht ganz auch wenns erstaunliche Ansätze hat.

Profil von Ric Ric  
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 15:58:19nach oben
Homepage von Ric
6198 Posts: Survival Expert
Friendly Gentleman


das ganze klingt höchst interessant, ob das wirklich so von den Produzenten gewollt ist, dass sich viele Dinge wiederholen bzw. "spiegeln"?




MEIN BLOG: MOVIES & MORE


Ikarus
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 16:24:11nach oben

Gast

ok aber das passt schon irgendwie.

wir alle haben uns gefragt, warum locke in s1 nach dem Absturz laufen kann.

falls die spiegel annahme nun stimmt, kann er das, weil er nun durch jack
in einer der nächsten folgen geheilt wird und wieder laufen kann.


Profil von Ric Ric  
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 16:28:59nach oben
Homepage von Ric
6198 Posts: Survival Expert
Friendly Gentleman


Zitat:
falls die spiegel annahme nun stimmt, kann er das, weil er nun durch jack
in einer der nächsten folgen geheilt wird und wieder laufen kann.


boa das wär ja oberkrass dann würden die FS wirklich Sinn machen




MEIN BLOG: MOVIES & MORE


Profil von Constantine Constantine
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 19:16:09nach oben

2732 Posts: Leader


das ist ja schön und gut, aber wie bringt das die story weiter ?




Don't be sorry your darkness is gone


Profil von dark_spidey dark_spidey
Die Erklärung für alles? - 23.04.2010, 22:16:41nach oben
ICQAIM
230 Posts: Lost One


Interessant und einleuchtend.
Ich sehe diesen Thread nicht als Spoiler.

Hätte da noch eine "Spiegelung":
Staffel 3: Jack will unbedingt von der Insel runter.
Staffel 4 bzw. 5: Jack will unbedingt zur Insel zurück.




max manny
Die Erklärung für alles? - 24.04.2010, 00:20:55nach oben

Gast

Zitat:
Original von miasma
Ich habe einen wirklich extrem gelungenen Post auf DarkUFO gefunden.
Diese "Mirror-Mirror On The Wall" hat anscheinend wirklich Hand und Fuß ...
Ich tagge es mal als Spoiler ... obwohl es keiner ist, sondern einfach nur ein paar Gedanken
von einem Hardcore-Fan. Es klingt alles so plausibel auf einmal

Ein Spoiler scheint es mir auch nicht zu sein, obwohl ich da auch etwas empfindlich bin. Eine Erklärung, worauf die Information genauer beruht, ist immer von Vorteil.

Für mich geht es hier um die Erzählweise von Lost, die Struktur und wie die Serie aufgebaut wurde. Keine Lösung von konkreten Fragen. Denn die Antworten sind, wenn auch sehr plausibel, austauschbar. Was die Erzählweise betrifft, halte ich die Theorie für sehr fundiert.

Jetzt meine Frage:

Wie lässt sich das Verhalten der Charaktäre in den FS eingliedern? Verhalten sie sich dort, wie am Ende der Seasons, oder am Anfang, oder wie? Sind sie alle auf der selben Seite des Spiegels oder nicht? Warum? Verhalten sie sich so, als wäre Jacob nie dagewesen und wie passt das zusammen? uswusf. ...

Das würde ich gerne noch erklärt bekommen!

Oder ist der Spiegel einfach nur Symbol dafür: Eigentlich wollen sie alle anders sein, das Spiegelbild gefällt nicht, Jacob berührte und beeinflusste sie, das Spiegelbild gefiel immer noch nicht und in den FS, wo Jacob nicht berührte (vielleicht ja MiB da ist)...?

- Editiert von max manny am 24.04.2010, 00:24 -



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